The Mostly Real Estate Podcast, with Declan Spring
Conversations with East Bay real estate agents, creatives, and community voices shaping today’s local market.
The Mostly Real Estate Podcast with Declan Spring spotlights the people shaping East Bay real estate — top producers, rising stars, and agents known for creative marketing or unique insight. Each conversation explores the craft, challenges, and character of this dynamic market.
Produced by Declan Spring and Denitsa Shopova, founders of The Home Factor, a Berkeley-based real-estate and creative-media team, the show celebrates collaboration, storytelling, and community across the East Bay.
CA DRE#01398898
The Mostly Real Estate Podcast, with Declan Spring
Bestie Slay! Gen Z Agents vs. The Market - #66 Emma Dolgin and Ellen Martinez
Ideas for the show or to want just to support us? Send us a text!
Two twenty-somethings, high stakes, and a market that refuses to sit still. I sit down with Emma Dolgin (The Grubb Company) and Ellen Martinez (Compass) to unpack what it really takes to build a real estate career in your early 20s. No TV gloss, just the moves that matter. From first deals during the 2021 frenzy to the humbling slowdown that followed, Emma and Ellen share how they learned fast on strong teams, built trust through consistency, and kept cash flow sane when commissions went quiet.
We dig into the East Bay’s unique rhythm, upfront disclosures, multiple offers, and the kind of local nuance that renders automated pricing laughable. They explain why buyer representation agreements filter for serious clients, how open houses and sphere marketing still work when you’re patient, and where social media shines as a credibility layer rather than a magic lead faucet. The Oakland realities come into focus: price declines, tougher insurance in the hills, and the lock-in effect of 2–3% mortgages that keep sellers put and inventory uneven.
And yes, we challenge the AI narrative. Emma tested disclosure summaries with a model and watched it miss vital details. Helpful for drafts and checklists? Absolutely. A stand-in for local judgment, negotiations, and on-the-spot problem solving? Not even close. If you’re an aspiring agent, you’ll hear hard-won advice about choosing teams, asking for help early, and treating real estate like a pro, because the moment you show up with care and competence, people notice.
Enjoyed the conversation? Follow, share with a friend who loves the East Bay market, and leave a quick review—your feedback helps more curious listeners find the show.
Follow Emma Dolgin on Instagram @emma.dolgin
Follow Ellen Martinez on Instagram @ellenmartinezre
Emma Dolgin is a licensed CA REALTOR® DRE#02113494
Ellen Martinez is a licensed CA REALTOR® DRE#02135069
Declan Spring is a licensed CA REALTOR® DRE#01398898
This is Declan Spring, and welcome to the Mostly Real Estate podcast. I really, really had a fun time chatting with Emma Dalgan from the Grub Company and her bestie, Ellen Martinez from Compass. And the reason I wanted to chat with these two is that they're really, really young. I mean, they're the youngest professional realtors that I know in the local market here in the Berkeley area. And that makes them unusual. Going pretty much straight from high school into a real estate career is uncommon. Well, maybe it's more common than it used to be, but in my professional experience it's kind of uncommon. I think this is a useful podcast to listen to. If you've been doing this for a long time and need a fresh perspective, or if you're somebody totally new to the career or thinking about getting into the career and want to hear some real life experience and the growing pains of getting established. And that's the whole point of this podcast, really. If you want to reach out to either Emma or Ellen, if you're younger and looking for people closer to your age in the business, I'll put their contact info in the show notes. Anyway, I hope I don't sound painfully old in this conversation. It's really hard to match their energy. And now I bring you my conversation with Emma Dalgan and Emma Martinez. I hope you had a good summer.
SPEAKER_04:Last year was better. Last year was funner. We're both at rock bottom, but that's not what we're here to talk about.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you never know.
SPEAKER_04:Are we all crashing out?
SPEAKER_01:I think so.
SPEAKER_04:He doesn't know what that means.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I have a 21-year-old.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, okay. And a 17-year-old, so he for sure knows.
SPEAKER_01:I we she we had this crashing out conversation two weeks ago, literally.
SPEAKER_03:Who was crashing out? You or her?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, her girlfriend. One of her girlfriends.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, her girlfriend was a girlfriend.
SPEAKER_01:He was crashing out, of course. Yes. Because of course, at first I was like, she's falling asleep. It's like, you know, dad.
SPEAKER_02:She's falling asleep.
SPEAKER_01:Because she was on the phone to her. She's like, she's crashing out. I'm like, it's early, isn't it? That's true, though.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you never know what that's. Okay. So welcome Emma and Ella Martinez, Emma Dalgan and Emma Martinez to the mostly real estate podcast. So I want to I want to talk about real estate as a career for people in their 20s. Because this is this is a thing. And Emma, you and I were just chatting. I asked you if if there's a lot of people, you know, your age, your peers, and that kind of thing, friends, are you doing something very different to what they chose to do?
SPEAKER_04:And and you kind of said I have a lot of friends in tech, I have a lot of friends who are engineers, I have a friend who's a recruiter, all that stuff. I have a friend who works in health insurance, but I'm the only one, along with Ellen, who is a real estate agent.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so it's kind of so it's kind of interesting. So what we'll do is we'll do the bio. So let's first of all, so so you're both Gen Z, right? You are. We established this. We actually looked at the dates and that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_04:So you're sure I am. I thought I wasn't, but Declan proved me wrong.
SPEAKER_01:I did. I crazy thought you were.
SPEAKER_04:I don't relate to you guys.
SPEAKER_01:So you're both Gen Z, and then you came in, you came at uh you you didn't know each other until you met as realtors.
SPEAKER_03:We met on broker tour. I drove by the house we met at today on Cedar. I was like, oh, that's what we met.
SPEAKER_04:It's a cute memory. I was holding it open for broker tour and she walked in and she said, Do you want to be friends?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And that's uh genuinely how we became friends.
SPEAKER_01:It's so nice. Such a nice story.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But I l I love that she just asked, Do you want to be a friend?
SPEAKER_04:I know, it was really cute. And she had her compass hat on, and she goes, We look like we're the same age. Right. And we were, and so she said we should be friends, and then we started getting lunch together. We started going on broker tour and we became besties.
SPEAKER_01:You became besties, and you go out and broker tour, and that's bestie slay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But we were like thinking, uh, you know, there's not a lot of realtors in their twenties around here.
SPEAKER_03:No.
SPEAKER_01:Right?
SPEAKER_03:There's a lot of people who like join their family.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Which is you in some way. But 100%. Like there's a lot of mother-daughter, mother-son teams. I think that's more common to see younger people who grow up around it. Where I don't I don't have any family in real estate. Yeah. But it's not even your it's not your immediate family, it's your aunt.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. But also, and then the people who are typically joining families or getting in when they're quote unquote younger, you typically see them in their 30s. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I mean, even 30s is like young for our industry. Yeah. But how old were you when you got your license?
SPEAKER_04:I got licensed, I think I was 22. But I started working with Anya when I was 18. I started interning with her over the summer when I was in college. And I just really loved the job and I loved her team dynamic, and everyone was getting along so well, and it just felt like a great fit and a great line of work for me to do.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:So I stuck around.
SPEAKER_01:Let's talk about how, as a 20-year-old, you got into real estate, seeing as there's not so many people at the moment.
SPEAKER_03:She was 22. I was 20.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So you were 22. You were 22. Emma was 22 when she got into real estate. And Ellen was 20 years old when you got into real estate, which is fairly young for her around here. So let's talk about just your journey into real estate as a 22-year-old.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Well, do you mean like start from way back when I first started real estate or just talk about how it's been?
SPEAKER_01:You know, for so what one of the things I've learned over the years is real estate's often a second career for people. It's very, very, very normal for people to have 10 or 15 years in another career. And then something happens, something changes, and they segue in, and real estate becomes a new career, but people are often just a little bit older, like they've had a professional work life for maybe 10 or 15 years. Yeah. And so that's that's not either one of you. And I find that really interesting. So I like as somebody who is you know approaching 22, you know, it's unusual for a career in real estate to be like your chosen path.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I decided in high school I wanted to go into sales of some sort. And shortly after, I decided real estate would be so cool because you're constantly interacting with different people, forming different relationships, lifelong relationships, practically. And I wanted to try it out. And so when I started college, I started working for a commercial team for Keller Williams. Oh. That's back when I lived in Texas. Okay. So I was 18 when I started doing that. And I liked it a lot. I also wanted to get experience on the residential side, though.
SPEAKER_00:Huh.
SPEAKER_04:And as Ellen said, I have an aunt who does real estate here. So I asked her if over the summers, when I'm not in college anymore, I could come and intern for her and her team, intern for the grub company, kind of do whatever I could to gain experience. Yeah. So I did that for a couple of years, realized that this is truly what I wanted to do going out of college. So I got my California license while I was still living in Texas, and I flew down to take the test, and I passed. And I think two weeks after I graduated, my Honda CRV was packed up and I moved down here, and I haven't had any regrets, and I'd have never looked back.
SPEAKER_01:That's amazing. So I have a few questions. So you got at 18, you were involved with commercial in Texas?
SPEAKER_04:Yes. I there was a That's really odd. Yeah. I there was I lived kind of close to a Keller Williams office. Yeah. The realtor who helped my friend's dad buy the house that we lived in took me to a meet and greet event.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:There I met a couple of people who were looking for assistance. And I interviewed and was able to kind of do background work and learn the ropes. I wasn't licensed, of course. I had just gotten my feet wet with it. But it was really cool. I got to see the contracting side, the advertising side, and you know, behind the computer, how things roll. And I really liked it and wanted to dive deeper and check out residential as well. I liked commercial, but residential is more personal, and I feel like I resonate with it a bit more.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so as like as an 18-year-old in Texas, coming out of high school, you must have been doing something really different than your friends.
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Well, my friends typically had camp. Like my friends typically had, for example, like campus jobs or you know, jobs with professors. I also had friends who had a lot of cool jobs, but you know, you're brand new in college. It's not like people are going off being engineers in their teenage years.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think I I got really lucky with the people I met and I wanted to do it, so I put myself out there, and you never know unless you try.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So interesting.
SPEAKER_01:And so why not? I mean, the next question is why not realistic residential in Texas? Was it because your aunt was here?
SPEAKER_04:100%. So she let me come over and intern with her. And I loved the way she worked. I loved the way her team worked. I really liked the grub company and the community here.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:And I had nothing against the real estate in Texas on the residential side, but it was such an intense market here.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:The way we do work here is unlike any other market I've seen where homes are on the market for two weeks and then the multiple bids and the overbid. Right. It had this level of intensity that I really liked and the quickness to it, which I felt like was way more exciting of an opportunity. And how could I pass up getting my foot in the door with one of the top teams? Yeah. I felt like it was too good to be true.
SPEAKER_01:So let's tell everyone who your who your aunt is.
SPEAKER_04:My aunt is Anya Plowwright. You can look up our website at teamplowright.com.
SPEAKER_01:And Ellen, you're not allowed to say Nepo baby this time?
SPEAKER_04:You can totally say. Well, you are Nepo Baby. Yeah. You don't have to. You are fully allowed to say Nepo baby. I own it.
SPEAKER_01:But you took advantage of a great opportunity because, of course, Anya's been around. She's so well respected here, and she's got her systems down clearly in many ways. Although I'm sure that as a younger person, you probably come in and look at some of the systems and recognize, hey, we could we could level up on some of this stuff, maybe. I don't know. I'm just guessing.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, definitely. I think I have helped level up a lot of our databases and the way we organize things and keep track of things, the way we stay in touch with our clients. But Anya really had it nailed down when I came in. I think I just helped improve upon things.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Ellen, your uh your entry into real estate's from you know a different angle, right? I don't think you had family.
SPEAKER_03:No. No. Um I remember I was watching TV selling LA when I was 12.
SPEAKER_00:No way.
SPEAKER_03:And I was like, I like people, I like houses, I want to do something different every day. I remember in middle school telling like my guidance counselor I wanted to be a real estate agent.
SPEAKER_01:Really?
SPEAKER_03:Um and my mom worked in HR, so she's in the office every day, and I was like, I can't imagine going to school and then going to an office every day for the rest of my life. That sounds insane. I always know I want to do something different every day.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um so I kind of always said that. I didn't think I would start so young, but I started college in 2019. Yeah. I thought like I'm gonna go to college and get a degree and then I'll get into real estate later.
SPEAKER_02:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03:Um, and then I was in college for six months and then there was a pandemic. So I was at home and I was really bored, and I was just walking around. I'm like, you know, might as well just start this because I don't know what I'm gonna do, but there's nothing else I really want to do. So I started getting my license, and then I wasn't in a super rush because I had no idea if I wanted to be solo, be on a team, start as an assistant.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, and then I ended up getting my license March 2021. I was 20 years old, and I started as an assistant at a team at Compass. Um, and then towards the end of that year, I sold my first house when I was 20, and my my mom had to buy the champagne.
SPEAKER_01:That's very sweet story. That is a really sweet story.
SPEAKER_04:I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01:So this is so different than when I was you know, when I was in my 20s, I I, you know, I I just that like I'd like to be a realtor. I can't even imagine, I can't even wear that as a feeling.
SPEAKER_03:It was crazy. I was there's um insane imposter syndrome. I was like, who would buy a house from a 20-year-old?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And then somebody did, and I was like, oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it was like, I I don't know, the perception of what it was to be in real estate. I have to be honest, like in in the 90s, my recollection is that like, you know, people generally when I was in my 20s, you know, you would view people in real estate. I don't you know this movie American Beauty with the net banning?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And there's that one scene where Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna sell this house.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I watched that on the airplane this year at some point.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was like it was it was not a very attractive proposition for somebody in their twenties. That's my recollection, it's just my recollection. Yeah, you know. Um, so I'm like, has something changed? I know the social media, like there's a lot of entertainment stuff around.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, a lot more TV shows. And I mean that's where and actually growing up, I thought I was gonna try and sell luxury real estate in LA, but then like I, you know, pandemic, I fell into it here. And then, like she said, I love how our market works.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:I can't imagine not having upfront disclosures, and I think it makes us better agents because we get to read so many home inspections.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, that's true.
SPEAKER_03:Like when I saw like the shittiest sorry, we're allowed to curse.
SPEAKER_01:You can do whatever you want. Shit! It just gets really vulgar.
SPEAKER_03:I saw a horrible home inspection, and I was like talking to John Madison, and I was like, I'm not to hype myself up, but I'm like, I think I could write a better home inspection than this. It was like just so vague and light. Um but I love how our market works and how fast-paced it is, and we have very high caliber agents, yes, uh, very educated agent community and clientele, and I think it makes it a m much more efficient market to work in.
SPEAKER_01:Do you do you think do you think like the the exposure on all of these reality shows? And now there are an awful lot of real estate influencers, of course. You know, of course, my my phone on social is full of them, of course, because I so I don't know how much the general public really interacts in their social feed with realtors, but there seems to be a lot more exposure out there, and especially with these TV shows. And and has that changed how I'm describing how you know the perception of the 90s.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, have you guys not been asked? They're like, oh, I'm a realtor, like, oh, is your life like selling sunset? I have been asked that.
SPEAKER_04:My response is no, because I you won't catch me dead in a mini skirt at a house showing. It's just such it's such a different ball game over there. And I personally find it very unrealistic. It's true. I think it's more for the cameras. I don't even know if that's the norm in the area that they sell in. I don't think a lot of the people on those shows even sell houses.
SPEAKER_03:I've heard some of them aren't even licensed.
SPEAKER_01:Really?
SPEAKER_03:That's insane. I don't know if that's true. I don't watch any of the selling. I think they're licensed.
SPEAKER_01:They can't talk about real estate if they're not licensed. I mean, that's one of the prerequisites to be able to just speak about real estate like that.
SPEAKER_03:Is it though? For a TV show?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think so for a TV show as well. I think they're all licensed. But uh, but but getting back to like the most cynical side of me remembers in the 90s, if you were a realtor, it's because you failed at something else.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I th I mean I think that that is still there. I mean, I we have a very mixed reputation with the public. People, if you spend too much time on Reddit, you think everyone hates us and they think we're like sleazy car salesmen.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Um, or I there was like it's like, you know, no one's posting content like your friend from high school who became a realtor. But then when they need a house, they need us.
SPEAKER_01:But they and they grit their teeth and yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're always always looking for workarounds. And technology is always trying to supply a workaround. How do we take how do we not pay commissions, right?
SPEAKER_03:Even buyers are like, I don't even know what you really do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, and there are like a lot of, I think, cringy realtors out there. And Ellen and I have seen reels before where I think they use the posting and their and the advertising as something that actually makes them look bad. Yeah. And I do see a lot of videos where they are in the inappropriate outfits or making the inappropriate jokes. And I see that and I cringe because I'm like, you're adding to the problem. You're making us look bad. Yeah. You're adding to the statistic that realtors are cringy and just want your money and are used car salesmen. It's yeah, I think social media can be really damaging like that when realtors kind of do it.
SPEAKER_03:The shows make it look stupid and are so unrealistic. They are.
SPEAKER_01:They're just entertaining.
SPEAKER_03:I like to, yeah. I'll post on Instagram in like a nasty fixer. I'm like, yeah, my life is just like settling sunset.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right. People have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. I I think it's an interesting.
SPEAKER_03:I don't think anyone does until you do it.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So so what do your like so you have friends, I'm assuming, in your twenties, you hang out, you do normal things that people do in their twenties. Are you know what do people you know, do they do they are they curious about your career as realtors? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I would say some people are very curious.
SPEAKER_04:Curious, but not in a way that they're trying to become realtors, but I think our friends really do respect our hustle and what we do. And they see us at open houses on the weekends, and there's definitely a level of I see how hard you work, and I understand that it takes time and you deserve your commission. I I have to say I'm lucky I have not received a lot of backlash because I think if I did, then you wouldn't be my friend.
SPEAKER_01:That's probably true, right?
SPEAKER_04:Friends support each other.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they should. A proper friend should. Do people ever sort of envy what you're doing? Because you because here's the thing is like, not only are there not a lot of realtors in their 20s around this part of the you know, the Bay Area, but there's also not a lot of people who are buying their first property in their 20s, right? And you know what I mean? Because it's so darn expensive. I mean, I don't I don't know a lot of it, you know, maybe in their late 20s, coming into their 30s, maybe. But I mean it's not like we have first-time buyers in their 20s as a normal thing. It's not normal to be a first-time buyer in your 20s. Is it though? You're in your 20s. I don't know. Are there are there?
SPEAKER_04:I mean, in Texas it's normal. Yes. Yeah, not in the East Bay.
SPEAKER_03:No, I mean, I don't think unless you have like family money, I don't think I've I know any buyers I've helped that are under 30.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:But even then, it's like family money, which is still, I mean, I was I bought a house with my family. Right. It's I I couldn't have done it without them.
SPEAKER_01:We all came together, but and so now you're doing this job that I think legitimately people would say brings you closer to understanding you know how to get into the market, how to unlock that part of your like foundational uh financial future, you know. That's so it's it's like it's the it's the golden ticket, if done properly. I know a lot of people who didn't buy their first home well and and karma. But you know, uh but people who do it right and and do it thoughtfully and are given good advice, yeah. It really is the golden ticket to a financial foundation that is generational, right? So um you know, I'm just wondering if if if you're if people in their 20s they look to you as like this is this is a smart move to get into real estate.
SPEAKER_03:Actually, yeah, well, actually this year um someone I went to school with, he reached out and we chatted and he wants to get into a multi-unit where he can rent out other units to help him pay his mortgage. Yeah. Um so there are a few people who are looking to investing, but I mean overall, yeah, I don't think most young 20s especially have like the discipline to save, and there's a lot of research that goes into it. It's a very, you know, even my clients who are professionals, not in their 20s, 30s, they're like, I've never felt so stupid besides trying to buy a house. Right. Yeah. Like, that's okay, that's why I'm here.
SPEAKER_04:I think they envy the cool parts of the job. Oh, for sure. They they envy going on broker tour and they envy the showings and you know, the parts of the job that can be really fun. But when you're at an open house when it's 75 degrees and all your friends are at the beach, they don't care. They would never want to be a realtor. I can't believe you have this job.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_04:You know?
SPEAKER_01:Right. When you're on call 24-7.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, when I'm like at my friend's place and I have to bring my laptop because I'm in the middle of a negotiation and everyone's cooking dinner and having a good time. Of course they're not gonna envy me.
SPEAKER_03:That's nice. Because that's when they're available.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:We work around our client schedule, which is and yeah, I think that's what people ask about a lot. Like your sketch, and it's like during the week we do have so much flexibility nine to five because most our clients are working.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But we have to work a lot in the evenings and the weekends because that's when they're available to look at homes and consult.
SPEAKER_01:And well, we don't have a set schedule, right? We're constantly you know, if you're not out in the field doing something, you're you're trying to catch up on your laptop at the office. And then you're out in the field and back at the office.
SPEAKER_04:This constant like effort to stay on top of the paperwork and negotiations and I think especially because I'm on a team, yeah, I have to be in the office every day. Okay. So I do work all day on the weekday as well.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Um, but you know, we're a team of three and we're just very cohesive in the way we work. We all help each other on everything. Okay. So yeah, it's it's a lot of time, but it's all worth it. And like I said, I wouldn't change up this job for anything.
SPEAKER_01:And you're a solo agent, Alan? No, I'm on a team. You're with Crystal.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Okay. So the dynamics of every team are gonna be very, very different.
SPEAKER_03:Very every single team's so different.
SPEAKER_01:Right? They're there, yeah. There's there's no way to compare and contrast teams. I mean, they're all they're all so different. But let me just ask you just a few more questions about this. Um, I'm reading a lot lately about insecurity, job insecurity, right? Uh, people who are legitimately worried about where tech is taking uh taking us, especially in terms of like um, you know, those kinds of jobs, entry-level jobs, that people would would, you know, in decades prior, people would have had, you know, a shoe-in job at here, there, or wherever coming out of college, and those entry-level jobs just don't seem to be there. And so, you know, so then so then people seem to be turning to more blue-collar work. Um, Gen Z seems to be turning to more blue-collar work, they're calling it two tool belt jobs. And so, as far as like, do you ever have conversations with people around, you know, concerns over employment in the future or with the the this kind of race towards superintelligence? And then where does real estate fit in and what's your level of job security as a realtor in your 20s? Do you feel confident that it's it's it it's gonna be a career that'll serve you in the longer term, or are you like, hold on, back up. This this is gonna go away in five years once they bring the I mean that's something I think about a lot.
SPEAKER_03:I think I don't think real estate real estate professionals are exempt from what every industry is exempt, where AI is gonna take a lot of jobs.
SPEAKER_02:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03:I don't know if the I saw this on Instagram. I don't know if it's true, but like half the jobs in the US are driving jobs, so it could be wiped out overnight.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Really? Half the jobs in the US are driving jobs.
SPEAKER_03:It's from Instagram. I don't know if it's not not fact-checked. Not verified.
SPEAKER_04:I saw a TikTok. Hired to investigate. Hired to investigate.
SPEAKER_02:Fair enough.
SPEAKER_04:Investigation is not very good. I I don't have a lot of friends who just graduated college, but I have heard that the job market is really tough right now. In terms of, am I scared about where my job is gonna go?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I am not. I think realtors have a really set anchor in what we do. Is it possible that with how much AI is expanding, can AI take over a part of the job, whatever that might be? Right. Sure, but having an active realtor guide you through the market, get you through a house, get you through negotiations, X, Y, Z, I can't imagine AI taking over every single step, especially when it comes to listing your house. So I'm feeling pretty secure. I also might be a little biased because I also work on a very strong team.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And I would be shocked if one day to the next it all vanishes.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_04:But yeah, you know, AI is always gonna progress, and who knows what's gonna happen in five years with how much it's been advancing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:But I can't imagine that the job of a real estate agent gets taken over by AI. And if it does, I'm actually excited to see how that works.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah, no, I I mean I I am too. And and uh we'll get into we'll get into that a little bit more. I'm gonna write down a couple of words to remind me. But I I I want to give Ellen the chance to tell us how she got into real estate because I just got I just get it carried away with the conversation so easily. But Ellen, in the pandemic, right, you got licensed.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, March 21.
SPEAKER_01:Which is a really, really interesting March 21?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:But I started assisting my first agent I worked with in like January, February, and I was in the process. I see. But I remember I was watching the news, and like I said, I always wanted to do real estate. I didn't think I would start young, and I was like, and I even remember when I started, I was like, I feel like I can't fathom, I know we're in these historic low interest rates, I can't fathom how intense and crazy this is, but I know it is.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I remember thinking, like, I feel like if I don't get into this now, I will regret this for the rest of my life. And I was correct. I I made the most money I've made in my career when I was 21 in my first full year. It's it's gone down since with the challenging market and and whatnot.
SPEAKER_01:So you hit the ground running with this. Yeah, and it was the best time to start.
SPEAKER_03:I can't imagine starting right now because my first this, you know, like we both were saying, open houses are so slow this year. We both get a lot of business from open houses, especially my first two years. I really built my business from open houses. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that that's true. Open houses when they're busy are good. And now we just sit there alone and watch TikTok.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, do you kind of agree? Like, I feel like I used to, in certain houses around the low interest rate era, I was getting sometimes a hundred plus parties through.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And now I'm stoked if I get 30 plus. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that would be a lot. You know, it's an interesting thing. I don't, I don't know that there's a a a great time to ever get into this career because you're gonna engage whatever market you're in. Actually, for me, for my personality type, I got in right after the, you know, right in 2008. I went pro in the end of 2007, right at the beginning of the recession. And so we there were I mean, I mean, there were no loans when I got in. I got in the end of 2007, lenders turned to me and said, Oh, we're not gonna see another loan for six months. That's how bad it was. Like there were there was no lending option for six months, and then they tried to figure things out. I mean, the country was collapsing. Yeah, it was just really, really, really intense. But I didn't know any better.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:But so a lot of realtors were getting out and losing the shirts off their back, and I I had no overheads, I had nothing. And I got in, I just worked hard. I didn't know any other market. But it it turns out to I think it was a good thing because then when the market did bounce back, and I was a couple of years in, three or four years in, it was 2012 and it really started to bounce back. I was in a good position. I had some experience, I'd been through some really tough short sales, lots of them. And so when the market came back to some kind of normal, I was I was ready and experienced, and and it felt like it felt like the sun was coming out, we were all making hay. I could It was amazing. So I did fine. But if here's what I like when I saw a lot of newer agents coming in and getting licensed 2020, 2021, for that to be your highest grossing year, and then it's all downhill, that's got to be really hard. Because if your expectation gets set about the kind of income you're going to make, and your first year is your you don't know it yet, but your first you're it's your first year. Yeah. So you're like, this is a hell of a job. I'm gonna make a fortune. And then the rug gets pulled out from under you at the end of 2022 when rates are at 8%, and you're like, I maybe I shouldn't have spent all that money I made in 2021 or whatever. I mean, I think that was I think I'd prefer to get into a really hard market like this one and then enjoy it when it picks up.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I I mean I think it it you get the experience you get and you make the best of it, right? Yeah. But I also I mean I just thought like going into the harder market, I was grateful I already had experience under my belt.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Because you go through your first transactions and you're like, I don't have no idea what's going on. Yes. But then by the time we're in a little bit more challenging market, I felt, I mean, obviously, you know, I st I don't know if we could even still consider ourselves like seasoned agents, but to have been through transactions and know how to speak, it was it's a lot easier to get clients and get experience in that hot market and then go into a slow one with some experience under your belt is how I felt.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, I mean, I never I still have, you know, you still I don't know, never I still never know what I'm gonna make in a year. And I definitely, you know, I don't I don't I didn't expect to make as much money every single year. Every year I'm lucky to have clients and make money. Um but I never spent it like crazy. I've always been I lived, I stayed home. Yeah, I didn't move out, I lived with my parents until we bought a house together.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:So I've never rented. Okay. I lived with my parents and we bought a house together, which is so beautiful. That's lovely.
SPEAKER_01:Um that's good.
SPEAKER_03:I never bought a bunch of designer, I bought a used car from my team lead. Like, that's just not my personality. I mean, I think my at points when I was 21 and I was really successful, my ego was insane and I'm a lot, I've been humbled a lot since.
SPEAKER_01:That's a good thing.
SPEAKER_03:But the market humbles you, that's that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a it's a humbling job. That's for sure. And so even though you were enamored or entertained by these people and selling LA or whatever these shows are called, you didn't live the lifestyle. You you're smart.
SPEAKER_03:No, because I yeah, I mean it's like you're because you still know it's never promised the next check.
SPEAKER_04:It's also kind of cringy. It is I think anyone who is very showy with how much they make and you know, driving a nice car is one thing, but when you have a Gucci belt with a matching Gucci purse and Gucci earrings, you it's like what are you doing?
SPEAKER_03:It's not like the culture here. I mean, if we were in a limited where it's a much more showy culture, I don't know. And that's almost that's why I didn't end up wanting to move down there, is I didn't want to have that keeping up. I love that I can drive my Prius, and nobody cares. Everyone drives it here.
SPEAKER_00:Everyone drives it.
SPEAKER_03:There's like 10 on every single block. It's not like, you know, I'm gonna, I'm I'm never worried I'm gonna pull up to a showing and my client's gonna be like, oh, why is she driving that car? You know?
SPEAKER_01:I think this market right now is is a a professional's market. Like you really need some skill to talk to buyers, hold on to buyers, really to guide people, and just to keep people moving along and to have relevant conversations because things were just selling themselves in 2021. We were really just I felt like so true. I didn't enjoy it at all. I felt like I was like just standing at uh at the checkout aisle, just checking people out. Like they were just coming through, and I was just the checker, because that was my job.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And I didn't enjoy that, it didn't feel right to.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean I didn't see like a contingency for the first two years of my career. I remember like I think it was a year and a half in. I was like, oh my god, this is the first time we've got an inspection contingency.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And so this is this is really like a professional's market right now.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, now we get to really do our job.
SPEAKER_01:This is a great market to learn in right now. And you know the numbers and the National Association of Realtors way down. Literally hundreds of thousands are coming out of the business right now because it's too hard. That's when you know it's time to stay in and really, you know, dig in and do it. So if we're talking to, and I hope, you know, we have an audience of a few people who might have an interest in getting their license, let's talk about maybe some of the mistakes you made, seeing as you said you got humbled, um but some of the smarter things you did as well. Like what what are like if somebody's thinking about getting into this career, ooh, I would say Emma, one of my advice points, don't be afraid to ask for help.
SPEAKER_04:I think when I was new in the business, because I came in with quote unquote some experience, yeah, I wanted to step up, like I think I thought I knew more than I did. And if you don't know how to do something, or you feel like you can negotiate something better, or you think you can tweak something better, help your client out in a different way, rely on other agents, rely on their expertise, and ask for help.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, lean on lean on things. Lean on other agents and learn as much as you can.
SPEAKER_01:Now you didn't you didn't need to select a brokerage that was kind of baked into the fact that Anya was already a grub and that's where you were going to go. But Ellen, you you had to get out there and make that big decision on choice of brokerage.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, well, I actually always wanted to join Compass. So it was really lucky I ended up starting as an assistant on that team and then meeting other agents that I wanted to work with.
SPEAKER_01:Why Compass?
SPEAKER_03:Most I mean the I think the reason I can think of is when um when I was in high school, then my the house next door sold, and Mark Choi sold it, and he was at Compass, and I always liked Mark Choi. I knew he was a great agent. Um and Compass just has a very cool vibe, I think. We are the most tech forward brokerage from everyone I've talked to who's even left compass and come back. Our tools and technology are head and shoulders above every other company. Okay. And the support as well. Um, and it just has a I mean, honestly, it's you know changing as the market changes, but it used to be very exclusive, hard to get in. I didn't even think I'd be able to get in.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Um, and they really do focus in that luxury higher end clientele.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:But you know, it's we have agents in all price points and work at all price points for sure.
SPEAKER_01:Right, right. So you're still happy with the choice of compassion. And did they did they have like a mentoring program?
SPEAKER_03:Well, I started as an assistant, so he brought me on and then I was onboarded as like a team member.
SPEAKER_00:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03:And then once I wanted to once I really was stepping into being a full-time agent, I met Crystal and she had a lot of young agents on her team, which really attracted me, as well as advice. And it depends, because it really it's so hard to say. Every there's nothing black and white in real estate. Everything is so different, every person so different.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But one advice I would highly consider is I don't think it's great to be someone's first team member. It's nice to see someone's had experience helping other team members become successful, and you can talk to them and say, see if they've had a good experience. But I'm sure we all know teams that have a lot of turnover. There's agents coming and going a lot.
SPEAKER_01:Um Right, probably. I don't I don't know that I know that. You probably do.
SPEAKER_03:I definitely know a few.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So teams, so this is this is very different than when I started. I I think when when we chatted before, I probably mentioned this as well. But teams are new. So is Compass, by the way. Yeah, yeah. 10 years ago, there was no there was no Compass.
SPEAKER_03:And now we're the number one uh brokerage in the country by sales volume.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's an extraordinary story. I mean, it really is. Um, but so so there's a couple of things that have really changed. The team thing is a big thing. It's about 10 years ago, I think, 2015-ish, yeah, that feels right. When you know, you'd start to hear about teams. It it's uh it's it's a reasonably new development, and and uh now we have you you it's gotten so sophisticated that teams uh are at brokerages and you don't even know the brokerage, you just know the team branding, and actually the brokerage branding is almost obscure. That's kind of how it is at KW here in many ways. You know, people don't know my team is with KW unless I kind of point it out, you know. Um whereas Grub is a little different. Obviously, Grub is gonna want to have their logo, you know, first and foremost because it's important for a local brokerage. But that but the team thing, you it's is it a popular way for a younger person or newer license, I shouldn't say younger, newer licensee?
SPEAKER_04:I think it's popular, and I also personally think it is maybe the smarter way to go about it. Because when you join a team, you have a lot more people to lean on who can pull you into deals. You can get more shadowing experience, listening experience. I mean, I feel like I learned so much from Anya and my team by just sitting next to her while she was taking phone calls, looking over her shoulder while she was writing emails, sitting in while she's negotiating and talking to sellers and talking to buyers, and just being able to be in her presence. Yes, even though I had nothing to do with what she was doing, yes, was so informative. And I picked up a lot of good lingo and tactics by doing that. Yeah. So I think I think it's smart.
SPEAKER_01:More is caught than taught. That's what I was always told when I was starting. Like, you you know, because let's face it, when you're getting licensed, are you really learning anything useful? No. I mean, that I think this was the revelation for me when I got licensed. Like I, you know, I I I pride myself on being a good student, and so like a lot of people getting the license, you know, I worked really hard to, you know, have a great exam result and the whole bit. But it wasn't until after that that I recognized I mean we we could all of us could sell a house anywhere in California.
SPEAKER_03:I don't know how to sell a house in a lot of places in California. It's all so local, is the thing.
SPEAKER_01:It is so local, it's incredibly local. Yeah, it's the most important thing. How far, how far out from you know, the inner East Bay here would you work for a a buyer client, let's say?
SPEAKER_03:Um, I mean, like personally, I've gone from like El Sabrante to Hayward and I did one in Walnut Creek in the tunnel.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But generally it's it's it's the that's about as far out as you would guess.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I mean, even I just try and work in areas I know because if they're gonna ask questions and I am gonna feel like an idiot, I don't think I'm the best agent to serve them.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:You want to set your client up for success. So if they're starting to look in areas where you feel like you're not gonna be the best fit and you can't negotiate as best as you can on their behalf, it might be smarter to pass them on to a more local agent. But yeah, I say pretty local: Berkeley, Oakland, Piedmont, Albany, El Cerrito.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:We go under the tunnel once in a while, depending on the client.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:But we keep it very to the perimeters of the case.
SPEAKER_01:Because the culture changes when you go to these other areas, like the culture out in Walnut Creek. I don't know it at all. I'm not gonna fit in or be known or, you know, my name attached to a purchase agreement's not gonna mean anything to most of the agents out there. It puts my clients at a dis disadvantage, I think. Exactly. If they insist on me working with them. But would you list a property more quickly further out than you might represent a buyer?
SPEAKER_04:I think it depends. We've done Arinda, we've done San Francisco, but it really depends on the client and your relationship with them. I think if they want to list with you and you guys have a very previous relationship where they only trust you, for example. They say, I don't I don't want to list with anyone else, you're who I want, you're the only person I'm comfortable with, then of course maybe we would bend in either direction. But in general, if we're gonna be in an area that we don't know, we're most likely gonna give that client out.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:To someone who we do know, another agent, obviously, who we trust and have referred business to before. We're not just gonna hand off a client to someone random.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:But it's in their best interest that we do hand them off.
SPEAKER_01:It's their client's best interest, right? So let's talk a bit about um mistakes you've made that maybe you wouldn't want other other people getting into the career to make these mistakes. Talk to talk to me about being humbled a little. What what's the thing?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I was like, and looking I mean, I don't think I could even do anything differently, because I think anyone in that situ I was 21 and I was like the goal I set for my first year was like to do 12 million in volume and I exceeded that. So I was 21 and I'd done was way more successful than I ever thought I'd be at that age. So obviously it went to my head. And you know, the checks you see are insane, and obviously, you know, you know now it's like you can make a lot of money one month and then for four months it's zero. So it's very different. But when you come in so hot in a hot market, it totally went to my head as I think it would for anyone that age.
SPEAKER_01:I agree. No, I totally agree.
SPEAKER_03:I I And then you know, like I it's like life humbles you very quickly, so yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:There's not like going four or six months without a without a commission check to make you realize that it's it's all not shit. It's it's it's it's it can be tough. And then it's and then it's hard to uh you know not take things personally or feel bad about yourself. Recognize this is very normal for realtors, and you know, especially the first few years. It's very just a very normal experience to go several months without anything. Yeah. And just recognize not me.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:You know, but um did going for longer stretches make you lean in more? Like when you get into a fast-paced market like 2021, there's almost no time to take care of lead generation and the business of being you're just moving it, right? So you're not gonna be.
SPEAKER_03:You don't really have to. You go into an open house and you are, you know, getting buyers and sellers left and right.
SPEAKER_01:So the so the fundament is like there's there are fundamentals in lead generation that if to be a career agent, you need to establish some fundamental business systems, right? Because we generate leads. That's that's what we do, that's the business. And a fast-moving market, you're never gonna build a foundation. You're just right, it's impossible. But have you since uh have you have you gotten into a space now where you're really building foundation, building a career, building a the proper pipeline and lead generation? How do you approach that kind of thing?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I'm trying.
SPEAKER_01:Do you do coaching?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um like what's your what's your chosen method for lead generation? Is it still like I'm gonna do as many open houses as I can work?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it's also like if you're not doing an open house every weekend, unless you've got people calling and texting you every day, like what are you doing every weekend?
SPEAKER_04:We have heard agents say, I don't want to do open houses at the moment. Or what what was it? I don't know. There's agents out there who sometimes don't want to do open houses, they're not feeling them. Right.
SPEAKER_03:Whatever. But I'm like, I get it, they're boring, no one's coming in, you're just sitting there, but it's I'd rather sit there for two hours. It's all it's not that hard.
SPEAKER_01:But you don't have to do open houses. There's other ways, like there are people now, you know, who are building their book of book of business just online. Like we're talking about Ellie Ridge and people like Roland Osage and these people who are really leaning into social, like in a way that it blows my mind that somebody could have a legitimate business through social media capture. I mean, that just blows my mind.
SPEAKER_03:Agent referrals is another source of business. That's what is nice about being with something nationwide like Compass.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_03:We have retreats every year. Um, it's obviously, you know, nothing in real estate translates super straightforward, but every retreat I've been to, whether it's you know, two months later or three years later, I end up getting referral from that trip.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Um, as well as online, I I do a lot of more intentional social media. Okay, yeah. How's that going for you? And that's that has come like agent referrals. Okay. Not as much like cold leads, but also, I mean, you know, my friend from that I grew up with and he reached out. I'm I don't I don't think he would have thought to reach out to me unless he, you know, saw me posting on Instagram. So I think there's so many different ways to target Instagram, whether you know, I think cold getting cold leads out of Instagram is probably one of the more difficult ways, but it's an incredible way to stay top of mind and be touching your sphere. And as well as I think I've had multiple agents or lenders look on Instagram like Oakland Realtor, and that's how they've they found me. Oh, really? I think agents are vetting other agents on Instagram. I would too if I'm sitting referral, because I think you you can see so much of someone's personality, how it's gonna fit with their client. Yeah, especially yeah, younger agents versus older agents. It's like you make one post a month that's like your company template versus someone who is making very well high-quality thought-out content. It's like, you know, if you can make content this good, yeah, I think you're gonna know how to sell a house really well.
SPEAKER_01:What about things like um your presentations for buyers and personally for me, it's different for every agent.
SPEAKER_04:Do not like buyer presentations to send them something after as a follow-up totally.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:But for the meeting, just me, me, myself, and I.
SPEAKER_01:Kind of see if you vibe. Exactly. In a way. Yes.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And of course, you guys now, you know, there's a BRBC, which is which is you. Um you didn't have it for a few years, uh, the very beginning of your career. But it but I think people were already beginning to use biorepresentation forms anyway.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it's not new, it's always been there. We just never use it. It's now it's newly required, but there's other states where it's always been required, and I know agents who've always used them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And do you like them? What how do you feel about it?
SPEAKER_04:I don't mind them. And I haven't honestly gotten any p pushback from my clients about them.
SPEAKER_01:Right. It's defined the role, it's it's made it more serious for buyers. Um, it used to be that they would, and you experienced a little bit of this because the BRVC is fairly new, but people would flit around, and you really never knew if you'd hear from anybody ever again, and buyers would leverage whatever they could out there, and fair enough. I mean, that was fine. But this has just created it's made it a little more serious.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. And also, I think, I mean, an experience I had recently, I think it can save you from wasting time because a serious buyer has never hesitated to sign it. Right. Especially when it's, you know, your team member has a listing and they say, Hey, there's an unrepresented buyer, can you show them? or someone in your office.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I had one where my team was like, hey, show this buyer. He signed it, he didn't care, really. And then another situation, someone in my office is trying to refer me a buyer, and I and it wasn't even BRBC, it was the single property showing agreement saying, Hey, I know you don't know me. We're not a we're not exclusive yet, but I'm just trying to show you this one house and saying, you know, because I'm showing you this, I'm creating agency. So if you sign this, I, you know, want to represent you on this house. And they were like so weird about signing it, and then turns out they have a family realtor, so that's why they don't want to sign it. And I think it can, if you, you know, a serious buyer wants to sign it, someone who wants to waste your time because they're gonna work with 100%, whoever they want to work with, it it really can save us in that point.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I love most about it. It it it makes the conversation a lot more serious, and which is great because that that that was always the hardest thing for me. It was like you just not, you know, as a younger agent, just not being taken seriously by buyers for people just not recognizing the value or valuing my case.
SPEAKER_03:So many people think we're just door openers and right, right.
SPEAKER_01:And that's where we might go with AI. This is my concern with AI, is that is that we will increasingly just facilitate a process that becomes more and more automated by the by the artificial intelligence.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I also think it depends on the market. Like we are selling a hundred-year-old homes that all have unique problems, every house is unique. We've all run into homes that are so hard to comp because they're so unique. But if you're in Texas selling track homes or it's super straightforward and everything's the same, yeah, I don't know if they are doing the same level of work and have the same, you know.
SPEAKER_01:So it is so actually what you're saying is the opposite, is is that i each market will become we maybe get you might find that eat markets will they already move differently from one another. And as you said, real estate's just so darn local, but this will underscore that. Our local market will become, you know, it'll become even m more different than, you know, say Hercules is gonna be quite different than you know, Central Berkeley. Yeah, it could be.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, obviously we don't do a lot of new construction, but from agents I know who do, it's you still can have great representation. Like you still, I think, want yourself represented and make sure you get your inside, you know, people think new construction, everything's perfect, where there's still gonna be things that need to be fixed.
SPEAKER_04:I think in this market, because there's so many different layers to it, it is really important that as an agent you do a lot of hand holding, yeah, especially with first-time buyers, especially with first-time sellers.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Explaining things, explaining the fine print when they're stressed, calming them down. Yeah. You know, it's okay that the toilet leaked. I'll get my contractor over tomorrow.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_04:You know, it's okay that we're in backup. I have another house in second place that we can look at. And I don't know if AI can take over the emotional side. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01:Can can give it that context. We bring context.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, there is so much context, there's so much emotion. Sometimes there's tears, there's freakouts. I have been in situations where clients have had anxiety attacks over certain things.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:I AI is not going to sit in an office with you and rub your back during a really hard period. And I think that's where it kind of becomes unreplaceable. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but it's so I I get that, and and that that's what mostly that's what we say in the business. But at the same time we have to recognize what is one of the number one uses for AI currently, and it's causing problems in the world, is people tell all their secrets and get their therapy from AI. I mean, it's people really don't they? They use it for emotional support.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we both do.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So this idea where we tell ourselves, oh, you know, nothing can replace what we bring is with the human touch.
SPEAKER_04:I'm like, I don't know. Like, we're I think to an extent. I think, you know, if you're sitting in your room and having a boy problem and want to type it into chat and get chat's opinion, that's one thing. If you're trying to decide if you want to wear the red dress or the blue dress, that's one thing. But if you're in the middle of a heated negotiation, I don't see how running to chat is gonna help you versus running to a realtor. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Have you tried it though?
SPEAKER_04:What, negotiating with chat?
SPEAKER_01:You talk to chat to chat.
SPEAKER_04:About boy problems?
unknown:No.
SPEAKER_01:No, never. About negotiation options. Just again, like any other prompt we might use it for. Have you prompted ChatGPT to give me give me three good possible strategies for negotiation in this situation?
SPEAKER_04:Um, sure. For example, let's say I'm a buyer and I want to do everything with AI, and I find a house listed in North Berkeley for 1.2. Yeah. And I want to write an offer on it. I'm representing myself because I don't want to pay a realtor. They're annoying.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So I'm gonna go on chat. Hey chat, I'm looking at a house XYZ Street. It's listed at 1.2 in North Berkeley. Offers are next week. What should I write at? Chat's gonna look at Zillow. Yeah. Are Zestimats accurate? No. Right. But chat's gonna look at Zillow estimates. Chat's gonna look at redfin estimates, chat's gonna look at whatever. Right. It's not gonna be all accurate data. Right. And chat's gonna say, well, based on this website, this website, and this website, I think you should write at 1.3.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:That's where Yeah, I get it.
SPEAKER_01:I get that. I get that. I I do. I mean, I fully get where where uh yeah, our local market here, like Berkeley, which is the epicenter of that bizarre offset between list versus sales price. There's nowhere else in the country, there's nowhere else in the Bay Area that does that, frankly. I they don't do it in Marin or San Francisco to the same degree. But so you're you're right. There are there are things where like decoding, decoding the real estate market, where yeah, there's really there's the you know, the the the best computers in the world don't.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I just don't think chat could be that happy. And think about it, we've done two deals together, yeah, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Do you think that chat could have done what either of us did in those situations?
SPEAKER_01:I think the social, I think the social component and uh a professional realtor's ability to understand and trust uh, you know, the the realtor on the other side of the table, you know, and do that do that well. I mean, because right, you have multiple offers. You're not just reading paperwork and what these what these buyers bring. You're also interpreting voice and body language and the reputation of the realtor on the other side of the table. That's part of your job. Uh and I don't, yeah, I think AI is an awfully long way from the city.
SPEAKER_04:And there's there's just a lot that goes into it, which I would be terrified to rely fully on AI. I mean, the deal that we did together in Spalding before that went into contract, there was the whole thing with the title report and the easement when we did the deal in Albany when the bathroom leaked, and there was back and forth on that. Like, how is AI going to help you in those kinds of scenarios? Who knows? Yeah, one day.
SPEAKER_03:I think we do a lot of on the spot problem solving and the relationships we have with having access on call to multiple contractors, multiple inspectors.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Like I'd like to say, I'd like to see AI say my VA buyer when the termite report didn't get cleared. I need a contractor there in three days and I need a cleared inspection tomorrow. Right. You know, like they don't have those contacts and resources and relationships where, you know, maybe the these inspectors is gonna pick up my call on Friday at 6 p.m. and come out on Saturday.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Those are the things where I mean, I think honestly, the valuation is probably the easiest part they can do, but also are they gonna smell the sewer line needs to be replaced? That's not something we do, but you know what I did near the freeway next door. Sure. See the ugly neighbor whose house, the crack house next door.
SPEAKER_04:Like those are the types of- I did I did do something experimental with chat the other day. I that's not experimenting with chat. I uploaded a full disclosure package into Chat GPT. Right. And I said, analyze this for me. Right. Because for all my clients who are interested in a home, I do a full disclosure summary and I break it all down for them.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And I said, Huh, I wonder if chat could do this better than I could. I put it into chat. It was awful.
SPEAKER_01:Disaster, right?
SPEAKER_04:It was awful. I think it was as if chat read every tenth sentence. Right. It was messing up numbers, it was messing up issues, and I never did it again.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah, it's one of those weird things where you have to know it's like you have to know the answer, and then you ask Chat GPT, and but you know the answer, so you can rate you can rate the response from ChatGPT. Oh, I got it right or didn't get it right. But if you don't know the answer, you can't rely on it for a lot of things. Because I've done that as well. Although there is that new uh disclosures platform, I think it's called Prop Disc.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, I uh have you seen that one? Hold a few disclosures on Prop Disk. I haven't like used the AI like founded by the same guy as disclosures I am. Really? I'll have to look into it. I haven't actively used it.
SPEAKER_01:I'm nervous about it because for these reasons, you know, that it just it's are we there yet? Like, is it I've looked at a few, um there there's quite a few people using it now. Um and that analysis is is pretty good, but like I'm just worried, are we there yet? Because Jesus, it's a very litigious society we live in.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, how I mean I look at chat right now is a cute little assistant.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_04:If I need if I write out a super long email and I want to make sure that it grammatically sounds good. I'll throw it in chat. Here's an email I wrote. Can you please edit it to make it flow better?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:That's where chat's great. Yes. But you know, chat's not going to read my disclosure packages for me. Chat's not negotiating the deal. Chat's not deciding what to write at.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Yet, who knows? Okay. Well as of now, not my thing.
SPEAKER_01:So do you do you imagine there could be a point in time, not too distant future in the next few years, where there are certain markets where there you know there's more of a threat, you know, to real realtors' livelihoods because of AI. And then there are markets like ours where we're somehow shielded because of all these reasons we've talked about this impossibility of decoding you know decoding the market and you know understanding what something might sell for because it's a hundred year home and it's priced you know I think it just I mean it just depends on the clientele.
SPEAKER_03:Even right now there's there's people today who think AI can write their offers.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And even who don't want to work with realtors if you want a FISBO or yeah there's always been that there's always been different people and people who value that or not and but you know it's relationships and there's always going to be people who trust that and want want your expertise.
SPEAKER_01:So we're in a difficult market right now. We all agree. What are you finding difficult?
SPEAKER_03:I mean Oakland in particular is leading in the nation of fastest dropping decline in home prices. Right. Working with sellers who are taking a loss that's not fun. We don't want to help people not make money. I mean sometimes you have to help people transition for for what they need but um that's really sad. High interest rates you see these monthly payments that's very challenging and the thing is it's also I think it's the lock in effect where people have two and three rates so many people and they don't want to sell right it's also translated to not good inventory even though we are technically up in inventory I feel like it all sucks like we're touring seven houses but there's something horribly you know wrong with all of them.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Because if you're in a great house and you have a great rate why would you move but yeah if you have a great rate but you hate your house you are going to be mo more motivated now that you can buy at a lower purchase price.
SPEAKER_01:Oh I see what you're saying. Okay and I don't do that much Oakland. I I watch it and I've I mean I really see it's yeah I just had a super active buyer in Oakland. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I think another thing that's hurting Oakland especially the hills but this is also the hills in general is insurance is getting more difficult.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_04:So you know we're seeing a lot more homes needing Calfare plan even if the roof is new even if the wiring is updated. The flats I think are still pretty solid but Montclair for example Oakland Hills areas they're really hurting right now. Right. There's I think you were telling me there's like more inventory in Montclair than there has been not like recently but a little earlier this year.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah I had a listening Montclair earlier this year and we're you know there was like 27 other active listings in this one neighborhood.
SPEAKER_04:Wait and Declan didn't you post a story about everyone's A-frame in Montclair one time? Was that you?
SPEAKER_01:I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:I think I sent you that story. No I think then that's what I'm thinking there was like there's an open house signs.
SPEAKER_01:I saw that one.
SPEAKER_04:Because there's that one intersection in Montclair and there was like eight A-frames piled up it was so weird. Yeah that's whoever posted that story.
SPEAKER_03:If you want a deal go to Montclair come on the podcast yeah um but on top of that politically we there's a lot of uncertainty that's translating to economic uncertainty rates continue to fluctuate people don't know what's what's going to happen. And in some ways I you know I've heard people say that buying a home for them feels like stability through so much uncertainty but at the same time you know depending on what someone's risk tolerance is you know maybe you don't want to make the biggest purchase of your life when you don't know where we're going to be right as a country over the next few years.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah that's really a another layer that hasn't been around in a long time.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah even I mean last year was challenging and I don't think this year I don't I don't know if anyone would say this year's gotten easier or is even a little bit more challenging.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah you guys got into a career at a point in time where the you know the the the job itself was it just uh it going through some I mean the pandemic right pandemic is a wild thing to experience in your first few years of professional career especially one like this and then to get into a political climate that where there's so much uncertainty and it's a very unprecedented type of presidency we have this time around and you know what happened even in the last 24 hours it just it's it's um it's a fairly tense moment. And then you guys also have something that I didn't deal with when I was in my twenties and before you came in Alan Emma and I were talking about this a little it's just this amount of information every day that just because I I was 20 uh 20 year old in the 90s I was in my 20s and there was no attention economy.
SPEAKER_03:I mean it wasn't even a thing like I literally just sit there I mean I didn't have a I didn't have a phone yeah day off was like you know you didn't know what anyone was doing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah you didn't go on TikTok it was nothing you know like uh you'll never understand bed rotting what did you do Declan? There's there's so much information out there how do you cope with all of all of this information Yeah you must be I mean I just think it's insane what you guys are putting up with but so so how do you feel about the career now that you're in it for several years other thing we didn't really talk about but it's just I mean you are who you surround yourself with.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I when I first got into it I stopped hanging out with people my age it was the pandemic people were just hanging out doing whatever and so I was like I'm gonna start hanging out with realtors and that's also why we became friends is because my first few years I was literally only hanging out with people who are like 10 years older than me married with kids so then when it's you see someone your age and you can relate on that level and I think that's why I found Success Young is like when I'm only hanging out with people who sell a bunch of houses it makes sense that you are you are who you surround yourself with.
SPEAKER_04:This is a very good point and I'm I'm really glad you brought it in there's a quote and it's show me your future show me your friends or if you want to see your future show me your friends.
SPEAKER_03:I hope I'm saying that right yeah there's a quote I say it wrong nobody ever said that no one's ever heard the quote in their lives I made it up I forgot I went on a tangent and then I forgot the question but you said you know do we still like our careers and yes I think we're we're surrounded by great people I mean like she's literally my best friend like we talk all the time we do we're not hanging out we're on FaceTime we were on the phone for like two hours the other day just talking about nothing and you know the people it's brought me the clients that I've turned into really close friends. Yeah um just the amazing people it's brought um as well as you know like I I was I bought my house in December last year. Right. And I turned I was technically 23 and I bought a house with my family. My family was renting for 17 years. Right. So that's not like there was a ton of generational wealth there like together we were able to and that's something I never would have been able to do if I wasn't a bunch of debt from spending four years in college.
SPEAKER_01:It's a really really beautiful thing and to get into that younger is really impressive. Yeah. You know it's totally it's amazing. So um so so then and the reason I wanted to talk so much about AI was because you know I wanted to see if you felt like there was really any threat to your career but you seem like Emma like you're absolutely you're in it. You know you you don't you don't see any reason why you would change or question this career.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah and well I absolutely love my job like I said I wouldn't turn back. And my whole thing with AI is I'm gonna cross that bridge when it gets there.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I I don't want to pre-freak out over AI because everyone like I said it's we're not exempt from what every industry is going to face.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And I think I mean from what I've heard it's really you know the big companies Google they're not hiring as many coders because AI can code. Yeah yeah but like I said like I'd like to see AI save my VA transaction and clear the rot on the deck when the inspector won't tell you where it is.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah yeah so you know everyone's the entire world is going to change through AI. It's not just realtors.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah it's everyone and yeah yeah when it comes to like compiling data and all that which is a huge part of our job there's still that human component and having to interpret.
SPEAKER_03:I mean that's not really why people hire us. They're not hiring us to pull comps. At the end of the day somebody could do that.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:They're hiring us to you know look at the home and put it in context for them and guide them.
SPEAKER_04:Yes and you know we'll always say the hand holding is so important.
SPEAKER_01:So what's your so let's uh what's your favorite part of the job then uh is it is it that I don't think hand holding hang out with Ellen when I get to tour with Ellen on Thursdays.
SPEAKER_04:I would say yeah my favorite part of the job is looking back on a transaction and thinking wow I really help those people out they had nowhere to start and I really helped with the roadmap of A to Z. And you know buying a house is one of the biggest commitments of your life. Yeah it changes your life forever. So to be part of that and to help them through that is really special. Maybe it doesn't change your life forever but it's it does that's also a big part selling it you know will you make enough when you sell it when do you sell it?
SPEAKER_01:But you know what I mean I think the people it's a commitment and the places you live are the big things. I mean so many people's lives are changed just like that because they meet a person right and your life also is changed when you buy property because it you it's just it's changed.
SPEAKER_03:Because now you have no more money. Now no money I keep spending money my fridge broke oh my dishwasher broke you're broke now now I'm broke are there any myths about the career the industry you know that you just hear that drive you nuts like I think that like you'll never know how much someone makes truly because people like oh don't post how many your sales because they're gonna think you make so much money. It's like that check gets chipped away so quickly you know yeah and you have no clue what was negotiated behind closed yeah I mean I've put in commission to make deals happen. We have a split with our company we have a split with our team right we they don't take our taxes out we have to put money aside for taxes. Right. We have business expenses I'm with you a hundred percent I think everyone thinks we make more money than we do. 100% I always say I'm like people love to see realtors because they all think we have a bunch of money.
SPEAKER_01:They think we have a lot more money than we do. There was a period of time in social media before the pandemic probably 20 like 1617 18 where it was really normal when Instagram wasn't reels it was just pictures it was really normal for agents to post always the closing price whether it's buy side and people don't do that so much anymore and I put I really hated it as well because you're just putting out there you're leaving it in the hands of anybody who's in your sphere to sort of put together in their own mind what they think you're bringing home and they have no idea.
SPEAKER_04:And Zillow is it's public on Zillow and Redfin so people can always look it up and make assumptions. I was at a dinner party once this was a couple years ago and I had a distant family member do the same thing. He was asking about deals I've closed and while I'm talking to him about it he's on the calculator. Oh like and then he turns his phone to me and he's like oh so you've made this much and I was like I wish right that number is crazy. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah it's that's a terrible that's that's one thing that that drives me a little bit nuts. Any other kind of um any other kind of myths or misconceptions that people have that you find yourself dealing with?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah we don't wear mini skirts and high heels. Yeah I mean I've seen and obviously there's so many trolls online and they're like you know you make$50,000 you turn a light switch on I'm like okay if it's that easy then you do it.
SPEAKER_04:You know there's so much more I love that saying yeah when people are like realtors make so much money and it's so easy I'm like then where's your license? Yeah let's call it you do it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah seriously I wonder do women get trolled more than men in real estate? Because I never get honest I mean I don't I don't get any anything like that ever. Nobody's trolling nobody's trolling meeting bot accounts and start trolling you I want to get I want to get trolled I don't get trolling.
SPEAKER_03:I mean I wouldn't say I get trolled I just it's more like a me in the comment section or on Reddit.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah I could see on Reddit I'm not very active on social media like that so I think I have a few hundred followers on Instagram and it's a green agent yeah I'm low I'm low key so you two are like obviously best friends and bestie slay and the whole bit how are you different when you talk to each other about your chosen career how are you different how do you treat how are you different in how you treat it? I would say like I said social media is a huge difference.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Ellen on Broker Tour is constantly taking photos and videos, making reels, making funny content about her listings. I when I close a transaction I make a closing post and then I move on with my day. I'm not a big Instagram person. I I'm not looking at the next thing I can post I think my posts are twice a month when I close a deal or once in a while a photo of myself.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah you just kind of bookmark things a little bit along the way just so if anybody looks if anyone looks me up they see what I've done right they see what I can do.
SPEAKER_00:But it's just bare bones of but yeah it's not it's not anything crazy.
SPEAKER_04:It's not your book that's kind of but that's also because that's my style. I'm not a very like well wait a minute rewind the tape no I I'm not a very social media kind of driven person. I'm not posting when I go out and this and that and here's what I just did yesterday. It's I don't really post in general.
SPEAKER_01:And you got trained in on lead generation through you know Anya's methods I would imagine and you sort of pick up the baton you know and and sort of follow through yeah a lot of it we do of course referrals are a huge amount we have a very big presence on Zillow we have a very high rating and a lot of Zillow reviews so that bumps us high on Zillow so many of our clients find us there.
SPEAKER_04:Really um we are huge on this is going to be old school postcards. Yeah we have a humongous sphere okay whenever something is coming soon whenever it's pending whenever it's sold right postcard to the sphere postcard to the X amount of houses around that listing there's a lot of envelopes getting delivered to people's doors with our name and photo on it.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Do you guys like me do you kind of feel like it becomes actually a lifestyle not just a career but it's it's it's part of your day every day just being a realtor is just a way of being we never get to clock out.
SPEAKER_04:I think either way because anyone can also be a client right not that oh my God and I hate people who are like that when they're like oh nice to meet you I'm a realtor by the way of course that's not what I mean. But in general you're you're a public well you have a public job so you're in your own way a public figure your brand is who you are and people are going to work for you for that. And you know anywhere can be an opportunity to pick someone up and you know I like I go to my gym I've closed four deals through my gym so far.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Meeting people there. You never know right who you're gonna connect with.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. I mean you mentioned that you're a realtor and regardless of people's feelings about uh who we are and how we make a living at the end of the day if you tell people you're a realtor at a party they're gonna you're just gonna end up being in the corner of the Oh so how's the market? Yeah it's an interesting question. How do you answer how do you answer that question?
SPEAKER_04:I say it depends on where you're looking.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah like how's the market?
SPEAKER_04:It's such a Or sometimes I say you tell me what do you feel like the market's doing?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I use that at open house sometimes when people come in they're like neighbors you know how's the market? I say you tell me what are you noticing in your neighborhood and I feel like that opens kind of the floor for them to tell me their experience. You know well I saw my the house to the left of me only sold for 100K over but why did the one to the right of me sell for 600 and then I can tell them well that house you know the foundation had a crack but the one next to you had that view and it it creates a different level of conversation I think when you put the question back in their lap.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah and let them I think that's also skillful to ask open-ended questions and always bring it back to the client or the person and keep asking them questions and figure out what it is they want to know or what their agenda is. Yeah you know how's the market why why why are you asking me that question like trying to get to their why because they've got something on their mind.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah and it's way better than saying it's good you know right well tell me where you're looking what part of the market or what do you think? Do you live here?
SPEAKER_01:You know yeah which part of the market there's so many different markets out there price point geography you name it right let's talk about your various places where people can uh catch up with you online Emma Dolgan where what's your um your once a month Instagram my once a month sometimes more Instagram is Emma.dolgan our team Instagram is team plowright and you can also find our website at teamplowright.com perfect I'll put it in the show notes thank you very much Ellen follow me on Instagram for some great content Ellenmartinez R E.
SPEAKER_03:Email me Ellen.martinez at compass dot com text me 510 6856169 very easy to reach whatever you want i'll I'll figure out a way we'll hold your hand thank you both very very much next week Herman Chan will be on the podcast I haven't chatted to Herman Chan since 2020 so I'm really really looking forward to that here are the credits for the show this episode was edited by me with original music by Chuck Lindo and graphics by Lisa Mazer.
SPEAKER_01:The podcast is brought to you by the HomeFactor Realtors at the homefactor.com catch up on the latest news from the East Bay market in their weekly substack published every Sunday go to thehomefactor.com to subscribe and if you'd like to reach out to me with suggestions for the show please text me at 415468591 and catch you on the next day podcast everybody
